S3_3 Modern Biology: Bioelectricity, Artistic Evolution, and Nature's Consciousness

This episode features Tarun Nayar, the creative force behind Modern Biology, a project that blends music, science, and nature in a unique and captivating way.

In this enlightening conversation, Tarun shares his journey from classical Indian music to electronic experimentation, his views on consciousness and bioelectricity, and how his experiences have shaped his artistic vision. Tarun's story is a testament to the power of curiosity, the importance of cultural roots, and the transformative potential of merging art with science.

Episode Highlights:

• Musical Roots: Tarun's background in Indian classical music and how it influences his current work with Modern Biology.
• Bioelectricity and Consciousness: Tarun's fascination with the idea of bioelectricity as a "cognitive glue" connecting all living beings.
• Artistic Evolution: How Tarun's journey from Delhi 2 Dublin to Modern Biology reflects his personal and artistic growth.
• Cultural Fusion: Tarun's insights on blending different musical traditions, particularly Indian and Celtic music.
• Scientific Approach: How Tarun's background in biology informs his artistic practice and his approach to creating music with plants and fungi.
• Pursuit of Excellence: Lessons learned from his apprenticeship with Ustad Zakir Hussain about dedication, practice, and mastering one's craft.
• Nature and Music: Tarun's philosophy on connecting with nature through music and how it shapes his performances and installations.
• Spiritual Practice: The importance of maintaining a spiritual center and valuing one's attention in the age of digital distraction.

You can find Modern Biology here:
https://www.instagram.com/taruntspoon

Transcript

Raad Seraj: Today my guest is Modern Biology, which is a project of veteran musician Tarun Nair. Formerly trained in Indian classical music and educated as a biologist, modern biology sees him turn a new leaf by bringing his passions together in an ambient project that is organismic, uplifting and deeply contextual.

Raad Seraj: His work has been viewed tens of millions of times after going viral on TikTok and has been featured by Genius, High Sobriety, OK Player, and Bigboi among others. Tarun's EP, Plant Music Volume 1, has almost 300, 000 streams on Spotifyand has received editorial support for Music for Plants, Deep Listening, and Lava Lamp playlists.

Raad Seraj: Tarun, thank you so much for being here.

modernbiology: Thanks for having me.

raadseraj: There's so much I want to talk to you about.

raadseraj: [00:01:00] I first discovered you in the basement of the Drake Hotel in Toronto, because you were at that time with a band called Delhi to Dublin, which became, from that night onwards, one of my favorite bands. You guys aren't together anymore, although you do play sometimes and it's something I want to touch on later on in the show.

raadseraj: But before we get into all that good stuff, I want to talk a little bit about this one idea that you presented. and it's by an author. I don't recall their name, but it's something, something that really stuck with me, which is that this idea that bioelectricity, Is a sort of a cognitive glue, something that, universally binds us and our consciousness, together, maybe not just as human beings, but as all living sentient, beings on Earth. Can you talk a little bit about why that, what that idea is and why that resonates with you so much?

modernbiology: Yeah, so I, Michael Levin is the name of the scientist, professor who, who said that, and I'm a big fan of his, and it's mostly because the music that I make [00:02:00] is, for the large part, derived from bioelectric fluctuations, and bioelectricity is just electricity created In our bodies, and all living beings share this language.

modernbiology: And some people think that perhaps electricity, is the most ancient thing about us as living beings. and we all share this. Legacy,the very first organisms were also electric in, nature, from, sell to sell communication to interorganism communication that happens with plants through root systems and mycelium, to our nervous or modern nervous systems of humans.

modernbiology: everything is running, through ion channels and differences in polarity. And, It's only sort of now being recognized that bioelectricity is kind of a parallel information stream to what's encoded in our DNA for a long time, we thought of [00:03:00] DNA as the, when I was growing up studying biology, DNA was what you got.

modernbiology: You got delta, you got dealt some cards when you were born, and that's what you had. And actually scientists kind of, this is 20 years ago, 25 years ago, scientists mostly scoffed at the idea of epigenetics that your DNA could change over the course of your life. This was full on pseudoscience and now epigenetics is just something that we accept.

modernbiology: As reality. and now the kind of revolutionary idea, although it's been around since the late 17 hundreds, is this idea of bioelectricity that somehow the electricity in our body has some kind of informative, result on the way that our bodies grow out. And so bioelectricity has cognitive glue, means that not, our DNA is encoding what proteins our cells are making, but bioelectricity in our electron, our bioelectric field.

modernbiology: Tells our proteins and our cells where to grow and it's a very physical process. It's not like there's an intelligence involved It's [00:04:00] just a simple matter of things locking into different polarities due to physics if you watch a developing embryo That's how the embryo is developing along polarity along the lines of polarities, positives and negatives.

modernbiology: And without that, if you take away this electrical element of our development, embryos don't develop. And if you mess with the electricity as an embryo is developing, you build different organisms. So much is due to the electricity, just pure electricity, forget about DNA at all. So it's fascinating and we're at the very beginning of this journey, even though it started 300 years ago.

modernbiology: I think we're at the beginning of really great science in all sorts of different organisms from fungi to plants to humans and building new model organisms, Xenobots, all sorts of interesting things that I like to follow and read about, get inspired by.

raadseraj: It's probably really [00:05:00] relevant to the work you're doing now as modern biology, right? but what's really interesting to me about this idea of bioelectricity as this dynamic milieu, for the lack of a better word, right? That you're constantly, reacting to, or in, in the environment with, right? Is that the agent of change is not necessarily from within, right?

raadseraj: You could be altered by music, you could be altered by any kind of form of transmission that is electric, that is You know, maybe starts electricity, but it's then become sound and so on,

modernbiology: Yeah, I think, with my scientist hat on it all, everything's sort of up for grabs at the moment because there's not, we're still at the beginning of this journey. And as far as I know, there hasn't been any. studies done on the effect of sound on our electron as it pertains to the functioning of an organism.

modernbiology: But as a musician, we know what happens when sound happens, we feel sometimes electric and, So clearly [00:06:00] there is a relationship there, and sometimes it takes science a long time to catch up with what we know is true. and I find the whole thing so fascinating, and I think the approach that I take with my music and my artistic practice is that, although I love reading the primary scientific literature, it's really an exploration for me.

modernbiology: It's an excuse to spend a lot of time, with music and vibration and plants and mushrooms. And, just explore. and there's just so much to discover. Every time I do a show and I'm plugging stuff in live and people are interacting with the organisms, I'm learning new stuff, and it's very much a science experiment, which is maybe one of the reasons I called this project Modern Biology, because it is just a science experiment and a music experiment, and I don't really know where it's all going.

raadseraj: I was gonna touch on this later on, but since you're since we're on the topic,you speak with the veracity of a scientist and you are a scientist, right? You started, you used to be a geneticist. So at what point did. [00:07:00] Or was art always part of the picture? Because I think, and I'm not saying I believe this, but I sort of, I also have a background in molecular biology, and sort of sometimes fitting the art and the music as part of it was difficult.

raadseraj: It all makes sense now, but I think growing up it was very binary. partly because of social conditioning, what your parents tell you, and all this stuff. But how did that fit in your world?

modernbiology: Yeah,so just to clarify, I wasn't a geneticist, but I was a I did a undergrad in biology, marine biology specialization, and then a master's in oceanography. And then I ended up working in genomics. so I was doing, but I was doing the bioinformatics side of things. So I was writing scripts to analyze, gene expression data and stuff.

modernbiology: I'm not quite a geneticist, but only you and I would argue about that. Most people, sure, I was dealing with, genetics in some form or another. and yeah, I grew up,I grew up in a, my dad is South Asian, my mom is white, grew up in Montreal. And [00:08:00] being a musician, it's funny, and I think that a lot of Asian descent kids face this where their parents want them to have a connection to their culture of origin.

modernbiology: and they want there to be some kind of art transmission, whether it's in South Asian culture, whether it's but it not the dance or playing harmonium or doing some kind of singing or playing double, which is what I did. Or, doing something related to the culture, but they don't want you to do it professionally.

modernbiology: They want you to learn, but don't actually be a musician. So it's a tricky thing. They want you to practice. So are you spend hours and hours practicing and you're going to all these events and, that was such a part of my childhood and eventually. It took hold eventually. I was like, this is the best.

modernbiology: I want to do this. And at that point, my dad was like, what are you talking about? You're not doing this. You're going to be a scientist or a doctor and engineers. So it is funny how it works. But yeah, I did grow up [00:09:00] living in both worlds where I studied bio. I didn't have the courage or the gumption back then to be like, I know I'm an artist.

modernbiology: So I was like, okay, if my dad says that I need to do science, then I'll do science and I love biology. I love being outside. I love snorkeling and, fishing. And so I gravitated towards, and it's swimming. I love being in the water.so I gravitated towards marine biology, but always playing music and, those two things.

modernbiology: Continue to sort of live on, at different points in my life, one has become more important than the other for, but you can't, I think once you fall in love with something you're sort of in love forever. And you're either actively engaging with it, or it's just kind of on the back burner.

raadseraj: It's interesting. you talk about like parents want you to have a connection to culture, but don't necessarily want you to do it professionally. I, I'm originally from Bangladesh and if you look at the region of Bengal, very well known for art, music, cultural exchange, [00:10:00] spices, trade, commerce, all this stuff. And Poetry.

raadseraj: Yeah, Rabindronath Thakur, do not talk or was the first. Nobel laureate in literature, not Bob Dylan, but

modernbiology: Yeah.

raadseraj: Knows that, of course, right? and if you go to the average Bengali home with us,in Calcutta or Dhaka,

raadseraj: you're going to grow up with music, traditional music, classical music.

raadseraj: I know my, when I was growing up, I wanted to buy a guitar and my dad's no, you got to learn harmonium for three years first.

modernbiology: And I'm like sitting here, this, like this thing, you got to pump it and you sit down. It's like very, Very unsexy, but you know, in hindsight, I mean, I'm really, I appreciate it, but of course there's at some point the switch turns off and okay, now go be a scientist, forget everything we taught you, so there's a bit of tension.

raadseraj: you somehow sort of, it seems that, I'm looking at your bio and the work you've done. And before I get, I mentioned delegate Dublin and so on. You seem to have walked that line always,and without tension or at least the tension manifested in something very creative and productive. I'm going to read an old bio that I found and you tell me this, you can relate to it, but I'm also reading it out for a very specific reason. Okay, so this is

raadseraj: [00:11:00] from some website, UBC, the Chan School, I think, and they interviewed you and they introduced you as Tarun Teaspoon. Nair is a DJ, producer, and tabla player obsessed with fusing Asian music with electronica. He tours the world with his band, Delhi to Dublin, is a founding member of Vancouver's Beats Without Borders Collective, is a co founder of the influential Asian electronica label and blog, Chaiwala's Boombox. First of all, why Teaspoon?

modernbiology: Oh, why Teaspoon? I don't know. I think it actually started off with, I was playing a show at this little cafe on the drive called What was it called? It doesn't exist anymore. It was really sweet. It was called Clove,

modernbiology: and it was kind of an Indian joint, but they did events at night, and I DJ'd there a lot on the drive, meaning Commercial Drive in Vancouver, where I've been living for the last 15 years or so.

modernbiology: And, there was a numerologist who I was friends with at the [00:12:00] time, a Punjabi guy from India. And, he was, one of those friendships that just bloomed for A few months and we hung out a lot and then I have no idea what happened to him. His name was Dharnav and he took me aside and he was like, Dharan, your, your career is being hampered right now because you don't have enough OO sound in your name.

modernbiology: You need more, ooh, like numerol, numerologically, there's some connection between vibration and numbers and sound. And so I started, I was like, Oh, that's an interesting. And at that point in time, I was looking for, a DJ name or something. And so I was like, what about Teaspoon, and I was playing a lot with, my, my two, who would become my bandmates in Delhi to Dublin, Sanjay and Ravi.

modernbiology: And they were playing dhol with me, dhol, the big Punjabi drum. and so we would play these gigs together. And so it became Teaspoon and the Sugar Dholis. So it was like Teaspoon, [00:13:00] Sugar Dholis, like dholi is somebody who plays a dhol. so it was like, obviously in, in English, it became teaspoon and the sugar dollies.

modernbiology: So it's like a little bit, I don't know, it probably changed a bit there in translation, but, that's the origin of the name and it just stuck. And even now, to this day, I didn't, modern biology kind of, blew up on the Internet without me really intending that to happen. And it happened so quickly.

modernbiology: That I didn't ever get around to changing my Instagram handle. So my Instagram handle is still Tharun Teaspoon, which doesn't make any sense to anyone except me and a few friends. But that's what it is. Yeah,

raadseraj: podcast. But okay. That's cool. So the reason I brought up the, the bio, Particularly again in line with Delhi 2 Dublin, also the sort of cross border, I guess, culturally work that you were doing is that to me, music is also sort of like a universal binder, right?

raadseraj: the cognitive glue that we started talking [00:14:00] about. and a lot of the work that you were doing was crossing borders, crossing cultural infusing, fusing cultural influences and so on. Delhi 2 Dublin was certainly a manifestation of that.and what was really interesting the first time I heard you guys was like, I never considered that Bhangra and Celtic music would go. So well together. It was like mind blowing to me. and you also mentioned that there's a lot of connection. I don't know if that's, you talk about musically or culturally, but it certainly blends in so well, tell me a little bit about, before we talk about Delhi 2 Dublin in particular, how those cultures or those influences are so that they mesh together so well.

modernbiology: There's the maybe mystical, but not backed by evidence story. And then there's just the pure kind of musical physics of it. It's fun to start with the mystical. There are stories about the ancient Celts and none of this is backed by evidence, but you can look it up on the Internet and people have come up with these wild stories about how the ancient Celts actually originated, over the course of many generations [00:15:00] originated in either Central Asia or even further south to North India.

modernbiology: And so there are certain kind of musical ideas and musical lineages that traveled with this tribe of Celtic people over generations and generations, and ended up making this journey very similar to the way that Roma music ended up making that journey much later from, transition from kind of Rajasthani folk ideas to what you hear in all over Europe today, flamenco music.

modernbiology: So I've heard a lot of people say that's just not true, and there's no evidence for it. I think it's a beautiful idea, and I like to think that, regardless of whether it's true or not. But musically, it's interesting, because both, Celtic music and Indian music, especially Punjabi music, there's a very swung feeling to it.

modernbiology: It's, there's a lot of duh, so either the 16th notes or the 18th notes are being swung depending on the composition, and what that means is that instead of going duh, the dul is going duh, so there's a swing, there's like a groove to it.

modernbiology: And in, in [00:16:00] much Irish music, there's also a fiddle dee diddle dee diddle dee diddle dee. And so when you put them together, and there's also some modes shared, Irish music, and actually a lot of Punjabi music tends to be happy sad.

modernbiology: There's kind of a happy feeling, but there's a deep melancholy at the same time.

modernbiology: And I love that, that paradox, that, counterpoint. Emotionally in music, and I find Indian music and Indian folk music does that beautifully, sometimes it's just so beautiful that you want to cry. And when you put those emotions also fit together well between the two cultures.

modernbiology: And then finally, if you were to, give an awards to the two greatest drinking cultures of the world, it would probably be like Ireland and Punjab. And, so I think that there's that too, but both cultures really like to get rowdy on the dance floor and both cultures are very engaged with music.

modernbiology: there's a kind of, like a, like the importance even today in Ireland and Punjab, [00:17:00] music is such a, an important element of the culture and there's such a, you don't have to be a professional. Everyone goes down to the pub or everyone, at the gura or even, out underneath, the tree in the village, everyone sort of playing or even during wedding celebrations, there's just this such a great tradition of the whole community being involved in music.

modernbiology: And so for so many different reasons. It kind of made sense. And then when we started playing, I think also it could have only happened in Vancouver, because there is historically such, let's not just say Irish, let's say English, Scottish, Irish influence. in terms of settlers who originally came, not originally came, but who, who settled over many years in Vancouver, and then a huge wave of Punjabi immigration, which started in the late 1800s and continues to this day.

modernbiology: And so you do have these cultures living next to one another. And so it sort of made sense for it to evolve in Vancouver, despite the fact that I grew up in Montreal. I don't think Delhi to [00:18:00] Dublin would have ever been invented in Montreal. I think it was, it's very specific. And the rave culture of East Vancouver in the early 2000s is what gave birth to it because there's this kind of wild electronic element.

modernbiology: We weren't sitting around, playing soft music. It was like sort of banging beats and all of that came out of this very unique cultural melange, which only what it was like East Vancouver in the early 2000s. We were that sound.

raadseraj: The earliest rave culture was also very confrontational, right? It was very punk rock in that way, right? So it wasn't like, to your point, it wasn't being soft. It was like, let's tone ourselves down. It was like, here we are, fuck you if you don't accept us. Here we are, you're here for what it is, right? There's so many things I want to react to.

raadseraj: First of all,the melancholic aspect. I wonder where that comes from. Cause I, that's very common in South Asian music, certainly in Bengali music. It's kind of annoying to me sometimes, but I also appreciate it. It's like, why does everything have to be so fucking, sad and downer?

raadseraj: Can't we just be happy? I get that though, [00:19:00] but it's there's something, maybe it's the aspect of, having a very old storytelling culture. Cause we celebrate the sort of this, the sickly, the cyclical nature of life, right? That comes for us all. And that kind of stuff. Maybe there's melancholy from the, I don't know, but it doesn't have to be just like romantic melancholy and shit like that. so at what point did,maybe this is the point I would ask you,you mentioned that you grew up in a neighborhood in Vancouver Your close friends,

modernbiology: I grew up in Montreal, but I grew up musically, I kind of came of age in Vancouver.

modernbiology: In my early 20s. yeah, my early 20s for that decade, but I'll let you finish your question. But just to clarify,

raadseraj: So I'm also curious. Then what took you to from Montreal to Vancouver? and then where I was coming from, it sounds like you were hanging out. You live close to a lot of your friends, all of whom were creatively involved in one way or another doing underground shows. And then out of that as an accident, as I understand, came tell it to Dublin. So give me that sort of like that, that through line there. From [00:20:00] Montreal to Vancouver to Delta, Dublin.

modernbiology: I'll make it really short. Yeah, I grew up in Montreal. I came out to Vancouver where I grew up playing Dublin, Indian classical music. I came to Vancouver to do my masters in my early 20s and, quickly connected with a crew of people. I was living in Kitsilano at that point, which is further west. than where I live now and I got involved in a bunch of different musical projects and different bands and Ended up, you know forming a few bands and then by my mid 20s.

modernbiology: I had become absolutely infatuated with rave culture obviously You know psychedelics played a role in that. and that was really my Kind of awakening to the power of music and also looking at, until that point, I had been so focused on Indian classical as kind of the thing. And I just woke up to this whole world of sound, which I'm still exploring today.

modernbiology: so that all happened in my, probably 23, [00:21:00] 24. And at that point I met, many of the people that I'm still friends with today, 20 years later. and we were all. young punks, yeah, just throwing illegal parties and bush raves and, just exploring culture, exploring music. And I know that the same thing is happening now.

modernbiology: it's age old, there's this coming of age when,you just want to be free. And, it was great fun. And, and again, I'm still friends with people like Ruby and Kari and Jared and all these great. Folks who were just doing the wildest stuff back then and now we're all, artists and doing real shows, but back then it was dirty warehouses and, the back of,some, like clearing up in Squamish where we would bring sound systems and just have parties.

modernbiology: Do you think that kind of edge, I mean, it's interesting. Like on one hand, I don't want to sound like an old man. Cause I'm turning 40 this year. It's Oh, there was a good back in the day. It's never like that. People are always doing cool shit, but like in [00:22:00] the sort of like the Vancouver that you see now, and this is across, we're experiencing in Toronto as well. Those spaces, those, those parking lots, they're, they feel more and more rare. Do you feel like, where does culture go when things like that happen? Yeah, in Vancouver, there's. I think it's a getting old thing. I think, as we get old, we just fall out of touch, and I just know that there's, there's, a new warehouse space in Vancouver that just opened up that looks sick, but if I didn't know a bunch of 20 year olds, I would just never know, and, there's a bunch of semi illegal members only dance clubs that do really awesome stuff, and there's a whole generation of kids that are in their, early 20s, That are doing awesome stuff.

modernbiology: I don't think there's any way that can't happen. It's just a cycle that happens over and over again, and it's funny how as we get older, we're just like, oh, yeah, the old days, but these kids are creating culture that they're going to talk about as the old days in 20 years from now.

modernbiology: And it is tricky [00:23:00] when the city gets so freaking expensive, but it's almost like how wartime brings out art.

modernbiology: I think that it's almost like a war. It's a culture war happening where it's almost impossible to live in Vancouver, or to make a living wage doing anything. And so that does make people feel more resourceful. And that tension does, I'm not saying it's a good thing because obviously it's really stupid that people can't live here.

modernbiology: But there's no shortage of cool events that are happening, and I think it's awesome, and I hope I don't lose touch with that.

raadseraj: like good art, good, and strong culture is a response to something, right? it's not always self directed because you need something to respond to say, okay, we don't agree with this or something like that. Pivoting a little bit to more you, Tarun, and your personal life. I'm very curious, like you said, your dad was Punjabi and your mom was she Canadian?

raadseraj: Like native Canadian or?

modernbiology: No, no, she wasn't Indigenous. She was, like, Irish, Scottish, blood. One of her, one of the sides of her family was kind of five generations,Canadian. and [00:24:00] the other side was, like, first generation Canadian, and they, she grew up in New Brunswick. and my parents met at Totem Park residence at UBC, in the cafeteria.

raadseraj: Sounds like a famed story.

modernbiology: Yeah,

raadseraj: When you sort of growing up, how much of your life now or your outlook on life, do you sort of attribute to your parents and different cultures coming together?

modernbiology: I had a friend asked me the other day, so what, what do you feel more? Do you feel more brown or more white? And this is coming from somebody who's fully Punjabi, fully again quotes, because that's not really a thing. I think for people with mixed blood, like myself, it's not really either or, it's a both, I'm both, and that's how it feels, and I, it's really hard for me to know what it would be like to only have one of those perspectives and not have both.

modernbiology: It would be [00:25:00] like people who only speak one language. They don't know what they're missing and I kind of feel like that when people are like purebred, I'm like 100 percent this. I'm like, you don't know what you're missing because 1st of all, there's no such thing as purebred. I mean, we are all, maybe there's some locations in Africa that can claim that they're purebred.

modernbiology: Like the original inception of the human DNA came from the exact place where you're living, maybe that would be purebred. But for all the rest of us, it's we're just a mix. We've been traveling around the world forever. but for people who are, a mix between two very different cultures, let's say.

modernbiology: It's fantastic. I love it. I wouldn't have it in either way. I am who I am because of that. and I think that plays out in everything that I do. There's, it would be hard for me to say Oh, I like the way that it does this because it is just who I am.

raadseraj: is that something you feel now at peace with or is it something, a feeling that you always had?

modernbiology: Oh, definitely now at peace. Yeah. Yeah. I think growing up, but also the world is so different [00:26:00] now. now it's really normal for parents to be from different cultures. When I look around Vancouver, I think it's more normal for parents to be from different cultures than it is for them not to be from different cultures.

modernbiology: So kids growing up today just don't have any hang ups at all. It did take me a while to come to peace with it. but it's not even something that I think about anymore. Until people ask me questions like, are you brown? I don't know. who cares? Like, why are you talking like your parents?

modernbiology: catch up.

raadseraj: What made you, what helped sort of finding that, that sort of like common ground, it's not, that's not the right word, really, just being at peace with it. Like what helped

modernbiology: Oh, I don't know. Maybe just getting 

raadseraj: living, just getting old

modernbiology: Yeah. I'm trying to, I'm trying to think if there's anything else that's more specific. I think that anything related to identity, there's a lot of grappling that I think, I think what it is. It could be is just, I, I started, a relatively engaged spiritual practice.

modernbiology: I grew up in a Hindu household, but came [00:27:00] to my current spiritual path in my mid twenties. And for, for anyone involved in the spiritual path, it's a really long road. It takes, constant practice and you don't really know where you're going. You sort of start as a seeker, but you don't know what you're seeing.

modernbiology: it's a funny thing, right? Like hungry for something, but not sure. most of the time when we have a desire, it's for something, but I have a feeling that most of the people that are out there seeking spiritually don't actually know we're not familiar with the feeling that we're looking for, we know we're missing something, but we don't remember what that is.

modernbiology: And I think just along that journey of seeking, I've had experiences which have just showed me the fallacy of individual identity altogether. So you can get caught up in this bit of your identity or this bit, but that's not actually what's happening. That is like maybe a thin veil on the enormity of what's happening in every moment.

modernbiology: But it's not, [00:28:00] that's not who we are. My thoughts are not who I am. My skin is not who I am. None of that even gets close to being who I am. So although it's important to know how to exist in that world, I think as I've lessened my grip on, the reality of the mind being the only reality, I've just become a, I'm like, I could get into a whole thing about that.

modernbiology: But what's the point? It's not,it's not worth it.

raadseraj: It reminds me of, I read Siddhartha again by Harmon Hess,

modernbiology: Oh, yeah.

modernbiology: Oh, yeah.

raadseraj: And so you're going to have just to live,and so by virtue of just living, you're Given that the pursuit is always there, you will find, ironically, that thing, by losing control of that thing, you know what I mean? it's a very interesting idea. However, I will have to say,given some of the work you've done, again, I'm gonna pull from your bio, which is Beats Without Borders, right? Collective, like the Chai Wallace boombox. There, you are brown in some ways. And you want to present it to the [00:29:00] world.

modernbiology: But it's not the kind of Brown that people think, they want to sort of put you in that box, but there's a pride in the cultural heritage that you bring with you. Yeah. I think what I'm saying is that I am brown and white.and both. I'm both. it's not oh, I'm half brown and I'm half white. It's that's not a thing. Your consciousness cannot, you can't divide your consciousness in two.it's just not how it works. As far as my experience goes, that's not how it works.

modernbiology: It's like when you're, you're a different person.you probably speak Bengali, so you are a different human being when you're speaking Bengali, and you know that because you're fluent in multiple languages, as am I when I'm speaking French or when I'm speaking Japanese. I'm a different person, literally, and so trying to be like, are you Japanese, like when I'm speaking Japanese, I'm Japanese when I'm speaking French, I'm French when you're speaking Bengali, you're Bengali when you're speaking English, you're English, and so it's just like that's how consciousness moves it moves, it embodies [00:30:00] And then it embodies something else and trying to be like, you can only be this thing.

modernbiology: That's ridiculous. Even for people who are, quote, unquote, pure blooded of some variety. They're still existing in multiple cultures and when they're existing with their, let's say, like a brown person existing with white friends, they're in their sort of white embodiment. And for that moment, they're sort of in there, whatever that is. and it has very little to do with what, degree of melanin you have in your skin and how, and more to do with how deeply you commit. And I knew from very young, just from my, from the cultural background that I grew up in and the music that I played for my whole life, that my brownness was something that is so internalized that it's, yeah, it's sort of the, it plays itself out in every breath that I take.

modernbiology: and my passions, around representation and,my musical, even all of the modern biology stuff that I'm doing is very deeply influenced by ideas of Indian drug and [00:31:00] Thala, so you can't just binged in the background.so I was, yeah, I would say it's like very difficult to separate the culture from the person.

raadseraj: But you're really talking about this sort of form of being very fluid, right? And there's this agency that you need to actually exercise that fluidity very well, right? Because,people are not trying to put you in a box, right? Because maybe it's easier for them to understand, but maybe there's also some sort of politics behind it as well, but really, choosing the best of any world that you live in. And realizing every the words that you say, the behavior, the value sets, these are all just a form of consciousness. And if you recognize consciousness being fluid and

modernbiology: universal, you can just sort of flow between these things at will, which is where the beauty is.one more thing. I'm just curious,since we're talking about this part, you had gone back to India for a little bit to study under Zakir Hussain. Yeah. I studied at Zakir Hussain's. So we'll start Zachary Zanes. father's [00:32:00] school. So Zachary came a couple times a year and taught workshops for, a week, at certain points.

raadseraj: us a little about 

modernbiology: Ustad Zakir 

raadseraj: Zakhar, because I think a lot of people might not know who he is. I know who he is. I mean, he's

modernbiology: I think a lot of people know who he is, but maybe I'm biased. Yeah, he's Ustad Zakir Hossain is the, I believe, the greatest tabla player to ever live.he is a total master of the drum that I grew up playing and my guruji was Guru Pais. guru brothers with him, which means that they share, shared the same teacher.

modernbiology: Ustad Alla Rakha was both of their teachers. And so this lineage is through the kind of Punjabi Gurana, which is a school of double playing. There's multiple different schools of double playing in India, and I learned in that school and then when I was in my early twenties, and really, I'm trying to figure out, I was like, I know I'm, I like science, but I also know I'm a musician.

modernbiology: And I just [00:33:00] went to India for, originally for six months to train at the school and just kind of find out whether I had what it took. I did, but barely. I got my ass kicked. And then, and then I went back for another eight months after that. I came home for about six months and then went back for another eight months and kept on training.

modernbiology: And that was also a really formative time for me because it was, the first time that I had been, way of and you could probably relate to this. the way of learning in that part of the world is just not the same. It's not like positive, reinforcement. It's not oh, you're doing so well.

modernbiology: It's like you suck. You're fat, go home.

raadseraj: Put your hands between your legs, grab your ears, and

modernbiology: yeah,

raadseraj: across the room, that kind of

raadseraj: shit. Yeah. Very familiar.

modernbiology: Yeah, it's there's just no, there's actually no positive. You might get a shabash like once in six months.

raadseraj: if they're not yelling at you, they like 

modernbiology: Yeah, if they're not slapping you or yelling at you, then you're okay. [00:34:00] Like you've done okay today, but don't let that don't slip into any kind of comfort.

modernbiology: And I went there, as a 23, 24 year old and was getting my ass kicked by 12 year old girls, just slaughtering me. So I was like, what the heck, but it really did, the teacher made me start basically from scratch. and this is no, This is not due to any fault of my Guruji.

raadseraj: This is just my own Western, spoiled, entitled attitude towards the instrument that I had grown up playing. And,I learned a lot over the next couple of years, and practiced a ton, and actually got to the point where I'm now, I would say, a mediocre tabla player. I love that. It's the age old story of the student from the U. S. going East,

modernbiology: Oh yeah.

raadseraj: Kung Fu Panda, like

modernbiology: Oh, yeah. And you can see, you can see the teachers just roll their eyes when you come in I've been playing for 20 years and they're like, and 

raadseraj: Pick up this pail of 

modernbiology: Yeah, like just play a little bit and then, I play for 10 seconds.

modernbiology: He's okay, like just stop Like I know who you are. I know who [00:35:00] you are. Just go to the back and we'll talk later 

raadseraj: you're no different here. You're the same as everybody else,

raadseraj: right? 

modernbiology: it not only that but you don't have anywhere near the chops that you think you do,

modernbiology: Sit at the back of the class kind of thing and that's great. as an artist, it's really great I think it's very helpful To not be babied.

modernbiology: It's helpful to know where you are.

modernbiology: It's helpful to know in, in terms of just because there's an artistry, there's, intuition and talent and all those things. That's one thing. And then there's also like training and what you can actually physically play. And it's good to know where you stand here, because you can always do the creativity and the intuition and stuff, but you do have to know where you are, whether you're a vocalist or whether you're a piano player, You should sort of know where you stand here in terms of ability, and then use that.

modernbiology: My teacher had a saying, he's you just play your butt off basically until you're 30. And then when you're 30, You have what you have and then go do the best that you can with what you [00:36:00] have, but get your hours in and try. Don't just ride on talent. you have to actually put in the 8 hours, 10 hours a day of training.

modernbiology: Talent is something you have to, get good at, right? It's not something, I don't know if like talent is innate. I felt like you could be okay at something, but through practice and determination, you could really get good at something. Yeah, I think talent is innate. I think people are born with talent. supernatural abilities, but if it's not married with practice, then you're just another one of those people who, had potential

modernbiology: Or positive reinforcement. Yeah, I mean, there's probably a balance because I don't think it's healthy to just be so hardcore about stuff, but I have to say that just going to school there, for, for some time, about a year and a half, That approach does breed perfection in the level of speed.

modernbiology: And technical perfection, which is possible if you're doing that kind [00:37:00] of practice under that kind of like negative reinforcement is insane. Like I just, there are a few people in North America who have that, and they're blessed, but they're the amount of kids that they're churning out over there that have just insane skills.

modernbiology: It's crazy. It's like what, and it's through that system. You either and it's the same way that their engineering institutes work as well. So you either stick with it and you get insanely good or you drop off. So it's not very compassionate, I would say, but it breeds some insane skills.

raadseraj: Are there aspects of that time in your life that still apply today in terms of philosophy or,do you find your, I don't know if there are aspects of your life where you are more of a teacher to others now, has that do you carry any lessons that have flown through

modernbiology: At this point in my life, no, I wouldn't say I'm doing a lot of teaching unless you count making little videos on social media teaching in some way.

modernbiology: I don't really think so, but I was teaching a lot at a certain point in my life. I had a bunch of kids that I [00:38:00] was teaching and that was very rewarding.

modernbiology: And then I just started touring so much that I couldn't be a good teacher anymore. And so I sort of moved in a different direction, but I would say what, both doing my master's. And spending time in India learning music taught me is just that kind of attitude of You just got to work hard and you got to just practice and If you don't do that, then nothing's gonna happen, and I think that idea even with modern biology if I think aboutin, in today's modern context, you can have moments maybe where everything works well and you are blessed and,God is shining on you for a moment and you can take those moments and then work your freaking ass off to make something out of that, or you can just pray for rain and that it happens again sometime.

modernbiology: And I think what doing my masters and training in India taught me is just like how to do that kind of focused. practice [00:39:00] and how to love it, how to learn to love the process of practicing and exploring and it not being about an end goal, because it really isn't. There is no end goal. It's just so much about loving the journey.

raadseraj: And What's your compass for that? I mean, this is something that's, I find really interesting and I struggle with this sometimes too, right? causeyou start something as art, right? Cause everything's experiment. There's, you can be glued to any outcome. And then you as you find something that works, this applies to a startup or music in my mind.

raadseraj: You sort of become more of a scientist. You're like, okay, I found the way I found the pattern. Now I just got to replicate right. And scale. Often that can be detrimental to exploration and discovery, right? So how do you, where's your compass for this? How do you find that balance? because modern biology is not something as I understand also was an accident you mentioned, right?

raadseraj: And we're going to get to that in a second, but here you are being a more, intentional, deliberate artist with this thing that you built, right? So how do you balance this?[00:40:00] 

raadseraj: yeah, I mean, that's a good question. And I think it's a question that is never fully answered because I think it is a daily evaluation.and 1 of the I have a good friend. who's like a very, established artist and when. Social media, you know, I'm old, right? I'm 48. What?

raadseraj: Holy shit, 

modernbiology: like TikTok is not man.

modernbiology: Thank you. TikTok is that was exactly what you're supposed to say.

raadseraj: I believe it though!

modernbiology: I wasn't, I was fishing for that.but when things because I first started posting videos on TikTok back in 2021, I think, or 2020, 2021, maybe, and when things blew up over there, which is very surprising for anyone who's experienced that kind of virality.

modernbiology: It's what the heck is happening? This is crazy. I don't even know what to do with this. I'm an old dude. And, I don't even really know how to tiktok works. And all of a sudden, my videos are getting millions and millions of views. And, so I phoned up a friend who has experience in that world and she was like, she gave me some really [00:41:00] good advice, but she, her last piece of advice was, basically don't lose the joy.

modernbiology: Hold on to that joy, and that's the center of everything, and that is the compass, really. if it's still, your whole idea about replicate and scale, if it makes you really happy to, I think it may be a little different with art and business, but if it makes you really happy to replicate and scale, if you love it so much that you want to keep on doing the same thing over and over again, Then do that.

modernbiology: But if you don't, then why are you doing it?like you need to have a reason to replicate and scale and if it's not making you happy or joyful if you're not learning or experimenting and relating to the relating to art in the world in a different way, then what's the point? and so I've just kind of kept that at the center of everything.

modernbiology: I really do like the basic thing of, working with different plants and mushrooms and experimenting, but I also love working with people and doing [00:42:00] events in crazy wild places like botanical gardens and churches and all sorts of different stuff. And so I just try to keep it fresh for myself. I want, I spend part of every day in the morning reading the scientific literature.

modernbiology: About all sorts of things that interest me that relate back to modern biology. And so I think keeping it alive is the way

raadseraj: beautifully said, and I think to a certain degree, you probably need some sort of like a spiritual compass as well. Like the ability to look inwards and discern, hold on, am I on, am I really enjoying this? Am I doing this for others? Because what happens in my mind, again, I see the parallels between business, a startup, or a musician, is that at a certain point, you are captured by the demands of your audience. Rather than the demands of your own sort of spiritual nourishment and things like that. So what sort of from that perspective, what sort of practice do you have, or do you recommend for somebody who is trying to marry different worlds together?

modernbiology: like somebody [00:43:00] who's starting off in music or business or something.

raadseraj: or something like that. Or if somebody who's like walking different paths, just trying to keep the joy alive, as you said,

modernbiology: Yeah, I think having, God, that means such a it's like the question in life. So I'm not sure I'm going 

raadseraj: I'm all about convoluted questions. 

modernbiology: I think that's what we're all trying to do is like, how do we. In this world of light and darkness, how do we walk with, joy in our hearts and have the ability to withstand, all of the challenges and open up to the world?

modernbiology: And that's the big question, the eternal question. And, I don't, I'm sure I don't have a good answer to it, but the first thing that comes to my mind is,

modernbiology: I think having some kind of a practice that brings you into your center every day is essential and I can't live without it, I meditate or I have my spiritual practice every day because I literally can't. It's not because I like want to,

modernbiology: I guess I like drinking water, but I [00:44:00] drink water because I have to drink water to live and I meditate and have a spiritual practice because I need to do that to live.

modernbiology: And so I think having a practice is nice because it actually can be your compass. like, when you have sort of a reset button that you can press, you can be like, am I still enjoying myself? Is this still the right way to go? what's filling me with joy? Because you're right. It can be hard when, everything gets crazy to, to know what's happening.

modernbiology: But I think the other thing that's happened to us recently, and it's happened relatively recently, although maybe it's been a bit of a, A slow boil is, our attention now due to social media and just the way that even like movies and TV shows are shot is so fragmented that we can't, our minds are not gathered and it's hard to even make a decision because we're being pulled in so many different directions.

modernbiology: So this is relatively new for me. but I was seeing this tendency and, to get good at social media, I had to spend a bunch of time on social media, but there was a certain point only a few weeks ago. [00:45:00] Where one of my friends, ironically, so this is a case of, using the mind to defeat the mind, posted on TikTok about how he was only on, on his screen seven minutes a day.

modernbiology: And I was like, and he's got a huge fault. And I was like, if he can do this, I can definitely be better about this. And so the next day I started like a new protocol for myself where I'm on social media three times a week. I go on to post. so I make cool videos and stuff and sometimes I don't always post three times a week.

modernbiology: Sometimes once a week, sometimes it's twice a week. But when I go on for an hour and I'll try to answer as many dms as I can and I'll post stuff and I'll respond to a few comments. And then I'm off, no scrolling, no engaging in any other way I feel and I don't want to get like too dark about this, but, the tech overlords, do not have our best interests in mind.

modernbiology: They just don't they're not looking out for us as human [00:46:00] beings. And giving my attention to that world, that algorithmic world that's created, like my, the smartest people in the world right now are working on trying to keep us glued to our screens. That is who is getting all the talent is these big companies.

modernbiology: And I am not the smartest person in the world. I'm just a frigging normal person. And so I am no match for that algorithm. If I even scroll once on TikTok, I'm gone. Hours disappear. It's too strong. It's too good. They've done too good of a job. Of designing this thing and it's funny because the people at tiktok don't even know how the algorithm works, it's like a beast.

modernbiology: It's like a beast. It just destroys minds. And, and so I think that there's so much fun, hilarious, amazing, interesting, informative stuff on there, but I, my brain is no match for that thing. And my attention is too valuable. And so I have disengaged and I'm very much happier for it. And so I think that's the other thing.

modernbiology: I think that there's the element of having a spiritual center, but also the element of [00:47:00] prizing and valuing our own attention. And our own gatheredness of mind, which allows us to make decisions about what's joyful and what's not joyful. And so I'm slowly learning, how to navigate just like everybody else's and the world is changing so quickly.

modernbiology: And, those are the two things that I use to kind of engage more deeply with my life and my art, and I love it. Yeah, I love it.

raadseraj: It's a beautiful segue because, when I think about modern biology and the experience I've had, at least when you visited Toronto, it was,

modernbiology: Oh, yeah.

raadseraj: tactical, sorry, not tactical, sorry, tactile. And. And. just so about be getting in tune with ourselves and everybody around us like there's one particular moment I'll reflect on and I'll pass it to you is that, we have the sort of this, silent disco headsets, right?

raadseraj: And you sort of transmit the music and experience through that. At one time and every sort of meditating the eyes closed and I just opened my eyes in one second and everybody had a [00:48:00] smile on their face. Everyone. Everyone is talking about like the middle of Toronto in the summer, right? And depending on what part of the city you're in, you're going to find that sometimes people don't smile at all.

raadseraj: They don't look at each other. And here we are looking at each other, strangers, just sort of smiling. So it's sort of like the antidote to what you were describing, which is that cognitive glue that used to bind us as human beings is now sort of transferred over somewhere else, up in the clouds, right? And, Yeah, it's sort of like this diffuse a I that's everywhere. That's sort of optimizing the human race. so it's sort of like it's really beautiful. I want to ask you, though, a lot of us know you've about as modern biology as sort of the artist you are. But there must have been a particular moment in terms of this accident, this happy accident that happened during the pandemic, where you're like, I'm just gonna fuck around with some plants.

raadseraj: What's going on? Or is that something you always did? How did this sort of come to be?

modernbiology: Yeah. here's the origin story. I was in a band, which we've talked about, called Deli to Dublin. [00:49:00] And,actually a little before the pandemic set in, we decided we were all getting older and we decided to take a step back from the rigors of the road. for many years, we played up to 150 shows a year.

modernbiology: So it was, real touring lifestyle. it was a grind. And we were all getting a bit tired and 

modernbiology: My wife is from the northern Gulf islands of British Columbia, which paradisical, bunch of islands and it's wonderful. And we were up there for most of the pandemic, trying to keep things kind of normal. And I had all of my music gear with me and I become, in this new time that was possible off the road and in nature, I become really curious about building my own synthesizers. So I was taking courses and building synthesizers from little breadboards and making my own circuits.

modernbiology: And it's a, it's kind of a common thing to do when you're building synthesizers as an amateur, to use, Whatever you like as resistors and circuits, because you can use anything that is conductive to change the [00:50:00] speed at which an oscillator is oscillating. And so you could use, a piece of metal as a resistor, and that would change the speed of the oscillator at the other side of the circuit.

modernbiology: Or you could use an orange. Or you could use a leaf, or you could use a mushroom. You could use whatever you want, anything that sends a current through it. And so in doing these experiments, I became aware of this body of work that has been done since the 70s. Around electricity and music and plants, and I had the time to engage.

modernbiology: And so I just started learning more and more. I bought a couple of devices, started experimenting, started reading like crazy. And, And eventually started, posting some of my experiments online. So what I'm doing is nothing new. People have been doing this for a long time, for 30 years or so.

modernbiology: But I kind of fell in love with this practice then, and somehow, the algorithm picked me up. [00:51:00] And that's really what turned it from a really fun just bedroom project, or let's say front yard project, to, to something that now I spend a lot of my waking time thinking and, traveling around the world.

modernbiology: And, and it's been great fun, great adventure.

raadseraj: What do you think people around the world resonate with your work or this body of work, rather, that you're sort of a continuation of? What resonates so strongly with people, you think?

modernbiology: I think it's the combination of hilarity because there's something in just innately funny about seeing a mushroom make some funny sounds, There's something really funny about it. So there's that, but there's also we, as much as we have negativity bias as humans, and we are just fascinated with bad news, I think we also have this weird positivity bias.

modernbiology: Where we love watching, a friend was telling me about this video, since I'm not on social media, people have to describe the videos to me now. yeah, there's this amazing video of, a blue whale getting chased by a [00:52:00] pod of orcas. And that's the kind of thing that we're just amazed by. wow, nature is so crazy.

modernbiology: And I think that taps into something very deep inside of ourselves that knows that we are actually nature. We are nature looking back at itself and there's this kind of remembrance that happens where we're like, wow, we are so crazy. This crazy experience that we're having so wild. And so I just try to have moments like that, whether it's the live events or whether it's on social media, I try to, cultivate wonder in a way and maybe interrupt the doom scroll for a second to just realize.

modernbiology: maybe there's a, there's like a realization either in the laughing because the mushroom is funny or, I often ask questions like, what does this make you feel? Or would you try this? Or, just or giving people experiences in gardens or in churches or something like, let's try, let's actually try this.

modernbiology: Let's try this on what would close your eyes. what would it feel like if we [00:53:00] didn't have. Our brains and our heads, but yet are like, if you relax your forehead, if your awareness is distributed evenly over your body, like a plant or a mushroom and just thought experiments that help bring us into non human consciousness.

modernbiology: I think 1 of the challenges today is that we're so caught again in this 1 way of experiencing the world, which is a very human way. In this human way has not proven itself to be like necessarily like strategically sound like it's not, if you just think like in terms of survival, it's not doing a very good job.

modernbiology: There are other ways.

modernbiology: for sure. And, Richard Powers in his book, the Overstory, which is such a great book. He talks about the green world as like an alternative consciousness. And about how human consciousness may actually be.kind of like a maladaptation, like maybe this [00:54:00] perspective that we're so intoxicated with,maybe it's actually not a good thing.

modernbiology: Maybe it's leading us to ruin. And so I think it can really help us, relate to not only ourselves, but to nature and to specific plants to try to, just get outside of our own consciousness and imagine what it would be like to be underground, to be a tree, to be. A Venus flytrap, what would that actually feel like?

modernbiology: And I think that can help us have some compassion for the world around us as we continue to make decisions that are just not in, the best interests, not only of ourself, but of the living world around us.

raadseraj: you're absolutely right. I mean, I was thinking about this other day, I feel like all ancient cultures had some reason to look up to the sky and look at the stars. For us, we can't see the stars. So the contemplation has gone from are we the, are we alone in this universe to oh, I see skyscrapers.

raadseraj: And that's the only reason to look up, right? It's the cultures has changed. And this is what I love about your project, because there is that actual sort of disconnect [00:55:00] online to connect offline, that sort of environment, right?

modernbiology: Yeah. Yeah.

raadseraj: itself. I think it's part of the music and the sensations, That you're trying to evoke in people.

modernbiology: Yeah. Like real human connection. Yeah. Real human emotions. that's what does it for me. I'm not saying that I know anything, that I have any kind of information that's any different than anyone else, but I just know what I experience and what works for me. And so It's my hope that can make a positive change in some way.

modernbiology: And it seems to, so far, all of these, events that we've been doing all over the place have been extremely enjoyable. And, really fun. And, if I wasn't so averse to touring, I would be doing more of them.

raadseraj: speaking of which, I know you are touring and you will be back in Toronto in July. tell us a little bit about what the rest of the year looks like for modern biology for you. What should we expect? what are the experiments that [00:56:00] are coming up that we should know about, or maybe find out about later?

modernbiology: Yeah, I'm working right now on a field guide, which honestly I've been working on for a year, which is going to answer the question that I get most often, on online and in person is like, how does this work and how do I do it? And it really bums me out that I haven't been able to give I have videos about this, but I'm putting together a document that actually sort of has everything in one place.

modernbiology: I think I'm going to teach a couple of courses. It's always a challenge for me to figure out how to, do this and also be doing good. How to be raising money to my big mission is protecting wild places. and so how can I, I can. set aside a portion from each gig to go to these causes, but what can I do that's more?

modernbiology: And so I have thought about teaching, occasional courses where we will do like a full day intensive online or maybe even in person. And then that money can just be directed straight to, these causes that I support.so I'm working on a couple of those types of projects and I'm doing a bunch of touring.

modernbiology: I'm going to be across, [00:57:00] Europe in May doing field trips. And I think a couple of mushroom churches that we haven't announced yet. And then I'll be Doing a whole string of dates in, Montreal and Toronto and New York and Vermont. and then in the fall, I'm doing a bunch of Mushroom Church events.

modernbiology: And I'm trying to limit it to two week stretch, come home for months. Two week stretch, then come home for months. Because I'm finding just being at home here in Vancouver for the last three months has just been so awesome to be a human being in a location and be hanging out with friends and have friends over to the studio.

modernbiology: I was jamming with my friend Mende last night. With his big modular rig and I had my big rig and we're just like electricity everywhere and plants connected and just making you just don't get to do that when you're, on tour and on the road. I think, making sure that I have enough time to feed myself, my passions, as well as getting out there into the world and learning what I can from the world.

raadseraj: Remembering what makes you joyful, right? Coming back to that message.

modernbiology: yeah, it has to be like rooted. Yeah, rooted. [00:58:00] But it's a challenge, man, it's a constant balance, 

raadseraj: I'm certainly stoked to see you in July, at the church. I don't think I've been there before, but it's going to be super

modernbiology: It's cool, it's a nice looking church, yeah, we looked at a bunch of churches in Toronto. It's hilarious. I guess I should be going on incognito mode on Chrome, because if you look at my history, right now we're sourcing locations in Seattle and Portland, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and I'm just going.

raadseraj: Yeah, it's just churches. I'm just like looking up churches. So people think I'm like the most hardcore Presbyterian around, Turn on the evangelist. Okay.

raadseraj: Be 

modernbiology: yeah.

raadseraj: different form. He's forming a cult. Oh God. Okay.

modernbiology: yeah, I keep on telling people, people are like, oh wow, this sounds like a cult. I'm like, it is. It's the original cult, the cult of nature. Let's join. Let's join.

raadseraj: it can't be

modernbiology: I'm in. I'm in.

raadseraj: now. You know what I mean?everyone. Thank you so much. This has been fantastic. Really love the conversation and I'm super stoked. I think your journey is inspiring and particularly for me as somebody who is like constantly [00:59:00] juggling the world of science and art together.

raadseraj: It's super awesome. Thanks so much for being here and spending the time.

modernbiology: Thanks for having me, man. I appreciate it.